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Old March 14th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #16
Mamone
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[QUOTE=Fish Manager;1317522]Dan, I'm working on a response to your last post as I get time, I'll be out all next week and won't have time but I will get back to you when I return.

Great conversation so far I hope it's helping![/QUOTE]


Yes!!!Yes!!! The fisherie is improving just by talking about it.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 09:31 PM   #17
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Quit wasting time at patty and get that ramp in at vaca. My buddy needs a new place to flip kick and nosegrind.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 11:23 AM   #18
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Although, with the equation that you are using, it can't be said that a spike in the PSD indicates a strong year class or a poor year class, only that the ratio between the larger and the smaller fish has increased.
That equation is driven by the difference between the entire population 8" and over and the population 12" and over. So either an increase of fish twelve and over, or a decrease in fish between 8" and 12" could create the same spike in PSD value.


Donít just look at the PSD values also look at the values in the PSD-Q & PSD-M, what are they doing in comparison to past and present values? Is there indication of what is driving that PSD spike in those values? Remember PSD values are comprised of all fish over 12 inches. Spikes and drops in PSD can also be caused by changes in the PSD-Q & PSD-M values as well.

You could double the number of fish in the lake or cut it in half, and as long as the ratio was the same, the PSD value would remain the same.

You are correct; but remember PSD values do not give you indications of the overall number of fish in the lake. Where they are useful is in representing how the population is distributed in the various size classes. But you have to look beyond just PSD values to really understand the population.
I think everyone understands that the lake has a carrying capacity meaning that the lake will only support so many pounds of biomass in the fish population of which the largemouth population is part of. So the question is; of that portion of the biomass that is the largemouth bass population, where is that biomass tied up? To answer that, donít just look at PSD look also at the ALF graphs in the attachment (page 6 of the original attachment). Based on the survey data in earlier years (1990ís) you can see that we sampled more smaller fish and fewer big fish indicating that there was more biomass tied up in little fish. So if the population is composed of smaller fish you will have more individuals in the population because it takes more of them to reach carrying capacity. Alternatively, in more recent years you can see that there are more individuals in the larger size classes thus you need fewer fish to reach that same carrying capacity. This change is easier to follow if you look at the attachment I included with this post. Itís the same data from the original ALF graphs but Iíve split it out by size classes. From the current attachment you can clearly see the changes in the population over time.
It is these ALF graphs and carrying capacity that I based my statement of fewer fish but larger fish on, not the PSD values. I should have been clearer in earlier posts.

Without real population numbers, it really can't be said that there are fewer small fish in the lake, only that the average size has increased.

The numbers are real numbers from a sample of the population. The only way to get actual ďrealĒ numbers for the entire population would be to kill everything and count, weigh and measure it. Thatís not practical and none of you want me operating in that manner! Overall lake population estimates are possible to do but they are extremely labor intensive which makes them extremely expensive and in the end they are still just estimates based on samples of the total population. So we sample a subset of the population. Our protocol manual requires that sample at least 100 individuals from the bass population in a night of electrofishing to base my analysis of the bass population on. Sometimes I get that many and sometimes I donít, thatís just the nature of the business!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf patagonia historical bass data.pdf (333.7 KB, 97 views)
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Old March 26th, 2014, 01:36 PM   #19
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Fish manager, is it possible for people to get involved in stocking programs in AZ? Stocking Florida strain into Patagonia for example. I am also curious if it is legal to tag fish and keep a log of when, where and size.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 07:36 AM   #20
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Looks like I grabbed the wrong file when I posted last. Sorry about that! Here's the correct one.

Glass'n Occasionally the opportunity to make donations comes up for the stocking of fish. Currently there is a program underway at Roosevelt where the Dept is matching donations up to $50,000 for Florida strain LMB stockings. At this time I don't expect any such opportunities for Patagonia.

You can tag them, we have regulations against tagging terrestrial wildlife but the tagging of fish are not addressed in those regulations.

Again, sorry about the file confusion!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Patagonia Historic ALF.pdf (56.8 KB, 90 views)
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Old March 27th, 2014, 11:38 AM   #21
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My two cents, the bass and size population has decline in the last years. Not too long ago, the average big fish was 6 - 7 pounds, now days 4.5 - 5.5 pounds. no doubt the size and bass population is in a downward spiral. For starters, too much pressure, the lake management is very poor. a recovery program need to be put in place, better management of the lake water level, better policing by game warden, perhaps a size slot limit, better yet, catch and release for bass during the spawning season, no exceptioins. Just last Saturday, I saw three bass pushing four pounds of better being butchered full of eggs. Data and statistics pointing to a possible problem, possible solution, so the question what is the plan for a recovery effort?
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Old March 28th, 2014, 06:25 AM   #22
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Bubbling Ponds

I understand AZG&F is looking to convert Bubbling Ponds into a warmwater hatchery for the purpose of growing our own LMBass. How much fish can a hatchery like this produce? What are your thought's, Fish Mgr, on the impact having our own hatchery can have on our desert bass lakes?
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Old March 28th, 2014, 06:44 AM   #23
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One thing Ranger is it sounds like Bubbling Ponds would be used for Florida strain fish. Don is anti-Florida strain because they are too hard to catch versus northern strain and he wants anglers to be able to easily catch and harvest their limit. After all, this is why Patagonia is such an awesome lake. So, Florida strain would most likely not make it into Patagonia.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 07:47 AM   #24
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Red Ranger, it's hard to say at this point as I have no idea what level of production to expect out of Bubbling Ponds. I do know that impacts won't be immediate. It could be as much as 10 to 15 years before we really know what the impacts are.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 08:30 AM   #25
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If you are talking about impacts of stocking lakes, look at the results of the stockings at sag/can/apache within three years you saw immediate impacts on those lakes, three best fisheries in Az. Rosy may take a couple more years do to the size but the impact should be quite noticeable within a few years. Just the mere fact you are getting a new strain in the lake will provide benefits. Then again I don't think Rosy is as bad as most think it is for bass. With some of the big fish pictures being posted out of Rosy, and the water down, night fishing should be a blast up there this summer.
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