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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Da, brought something up that has been talked about at a few game and fish meetings. I believe the length limit most talked about was 20"

So the question is
Would you like to see Sag. made into a trophy lake. this meaning no fish over 20" must be released Immediatly.
 

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What Delw is trying to say is "Would you like to see Saguaro regulated as a trophy LMB lake? Where any fish 20" and over would need to be released immediately."
 

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Fish length

Wouldn't it be better to say that all fish UNDER 20" must be released immediately?

Without little fish there won't be any big fish. If people can keep all smaller fish it diminishes the population that can become big ones.

Mandatory catch and release would be best. Keep nothing but the pictures.

At least for 4 or 5 years to give the population time to build up and grow.

With all the fishing pressure these days it doesn't take to long to have a lake fished out.
 

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As a tournament fisherman an immediate release is problematic. Those who want a trophy lake must acknowledge that tournaments practice catch and release and any trophy or new slot regulation will have to accommodate tournament anglers needs. Delayed release is almost as good as instant release given the quality of today’s livewell systems.

I have also proposed that we, who enjoy tournament fishing, would pay for the privileged of delayed release. The fees would help G&F fund various things like a release boat for Lake Pleasant. With this kind of approach it would be possible to add a slot to Lake Pleasant and create a trophy lake at Saguaro or Canyon. Without this approach the voices of opposition will solidify.
 

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Hey conquistador, where and to whom did you propose a fee for delayed release priviledge? I'm all for that as a solution and for those who desperately want a skin mount of a 12 lb bass hanging on their wall, let them pay for that priviledge as well. Like a big game permit.
 

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Isnt it true if you have a trophy lake,they dont hold tournys there do that? Do they have tournys in the trophy lakes in Mexico?
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
DA,

I have not made an official proposal to an official group. I have in the past year or, gosh maybe two years now, have posted it on the boards and discussions did occur. Some thought the idea was unfair.

I would not present an official proposal unless I have backing from tournament groups and their members. Without their support it wouldn't work. The proposal would cost tournament fisherman more money and everybody would need to understand the benefit to them directly.
 

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Not going to come out of my pocket thats for damn sure.

your starting to sound like our new governor raise tax's, Thats the most ludicrist (sp) thing I have heard of.

Thats another reason if such a lake was to exist in AZ saguaro would be the perfect one, Very few tournys on that lake.

Da dont make exceptions for a trophy lake. Have the rules stating immed. release of all bass over 20" , start making rules to benifit certain individuals ie tourny guys , guys who want to get one for the wall etc and there will be problems.


Kurt tournys are held on trophy lakes all over the US you still have to let the ones stated in the law go.

Delw



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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Delw,

I had a tournament here in FL. last weekend on lake walk-in-water. It's a trophy lake with a 15-24" slot, and only one fish over 24" may be kept. The club got a waiver and each of us had a card on our boat to show we were in the tournament if we got checked. It was my understanding there was no charge for the waiver, just a hoop or two to jump through.
 

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Delw, how can you say delayed release permits and trophy bass permits are ludicrous? Don't you apply for, pay for, and use deer and elk hunting permits? Or should we eliminate those too? Then every Tom, Dick and Harry can kill as many deer and elk as they want. Then what do you get? No deer, no elk. The same game management principles apply here.

To compare these permit fees to taxes is ludicrous. Its a use fee not a general tax. Like you pay for an elk permit and I don't.

These permits are tools used to address the needs of segments of the fishing population while managing the fisheries for the benefit of all fishermen.

Its an assumption that you would need to pay for these permits. Maybe not. Maybe you just need to apply and jump thru a couple of hoops like Desert Cajun said is done in Florida.
 

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Delw,

I was the one who posted as a guest about the permit idea, forgot to sign-in. :)

Please don't compare me with our governor, nor the permit idea with taxes that we would all be forced to pay. The permit system would be just like a trout stamp or Colorado river stamp. It would be optional.

When I refer to a permit it is a delayed release stamp useful to tournament anglers. I can’t see it of any use to a none tournament angler or a tournament angler not in a tournament. I practice immediate catch & release when not in a tournament and I have no need to keep fish in my livewell when not in a tournament.

In addition to paying a stamp fee, I would also support a no dead fish rule for tournaments that are allowed to utilize the delayed release stamp. Maybe it would only be for slot fish as in” no dead slot fish” rule.

I support the no dead fish rule of the Bill Luke Open. I know some day it will hurt me but if it protects the resource form abusers, and there are, then that is good.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
conquistador.
then what would you compare it to, your idea is just like most of the liberals of the world. hey someone is having fun lets charge them more money for it.
I will compare it to tax's for the simple fact that when someone wants to do something and has fun at it certain individuals want to put a price on it. Thats BS Your pockets are obviously deeper than most cause most wouldnt go for such a thing.

another reason your idea wouldnt work is what if fish die in the tourny do we pay a big fine? Banned from fishing on that lake?
why is it ok for a tourny to bring a fish to weigh-in and not someone fishing the other side of the lake that catchs a toad and wants to show there buddy's or parents back at camp or on the other side of the lake?


Da. you cant compare a deer tag or elk tag to bass fishing in the sence of tag fee's. One because bass are very abundant in the state and elk and deer are not. They have to regulate and area so the 30,000 elk in one unit wont have 35,000 hunters in that one unit(number for comparison purpose's )

Also if you want to really go into the root of the problem from what alot of guys say then just ban people from taking home bass. You said it yourself many times that what is hurting the lakes is people putting them on the wall and or eating them. why charge someone who is catch and releasing all the time ? most of the bass guys put the fish back so why should we get charged.

As far as a permit for bass(like trout) where would the money go? for what? we dont have a bass hatchery here in AZ and if I remember correctly we dont stock bass in our lakes( except in certain situations ie patagonia) so why have a permit. Bass are plentiful in our lakes and breed in our lakes where trout dont. Bass are generally not a take home fish where trout are .
So there is a big difference.

Desert cajun, thats wild that a tourny can get a permit.


Giving and idea to the game and fish like this would definatly show dollar signs in there eyes, not so much the game and fish guys but the number crunchers they use.
next you guys will want bass boats to be charged a automatic BASS tag fee since you buy a bass boat you are definatly targeting bass.

It would be nice to see someone for a change to come up with an idea that doesnt cost the fishermen or tourny guys money every damn time they turn around.
Which would be simple to do.. like just make sag a a damn trophy lake and leave the rest alone.

The way you guys would like it this would be the only state in the freakin country that would have a permit for

trout
large mouthbass
small mouth bass

(these will be targeted next good money in it)
crappie
catfish
white bass
walleye

however when you buy your licence stripers will be free. Damn a fishing licence will end up costing and arm and a leg and I only have one working arm left :wink:

This is going to be a fun topic :wink:




Delw
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Geez, isn't canyon and saguro trophy lakes already, there's hundreds of fish over 10+ in these to lakes. Just got to figure out how to catch them. Bottom line is you ain't going to catch a 10+ everytime you go fishing. How often do you see one caught by the pro's during the flw or bassmasters tourney's. They just finished a tourney at clear lake were the west's best was out there and the big fish was only 7+ and clear lake is definitely a tropy lake.

Most of us that fish saguro and canyon probably catch more 5-7 lber's in a year then most fisherman in other states catch in a lifetime.

These fish, feed year around in Arizona, more trout stocking might help sag/canyon but I doubt it since they have millions of yellow base to eat. The only one's that benefit with more trout stocking is the fisherman hoping to get a pig when they dump all those trout off the ramp. Don't even think a slot limit at any of these lakes will make a difference. The fish are there you just got to catch them. They don't get to be 10+ for being stupid, just like a buck doesn't get to be a 12 pointer (that's 6 by 6 for you westerner's). It's called instinct and survivial. Happy fishing and hope everybody catches that 10+

Just a thought, if we get all these permits passed, maybe we can get a law passed for all hunter's to use tranquilizer darts instead of bullets on those poor critters, that way they can take a picture of there trophy and have a mount made by the picture. Then the novice maight have a shot a trophy. I guess it's unfair for those of us that study the habit of big bucks and big fish and put the time in to scout in advance so are sucess rate can be greater than the the ones that don't. Time, patience and understanding the habits of trophy animals and fish will ensure your sucess rate. Just kidding about the darts.

2Dogs
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Delw. said:
Da. you cant compare a deer tag or elk tag to bass fishing in the sence of tag fee's. One because bass are very abundant in the state and elk and deer are not. They have to regulate and area so the 30,000 elk in one unit wont have 35,000 hunters in that one unit(number for comparison purpose's )

d a replies: Its highly probable there are more elk and deer in this state than bass over 8 lbs. And I am talking trophy bass permits to mount a big fish from a regulated trophy lake. You say elk and deer are not abundant? 30,000 elk in one unit is not abundance? Tags are a tool used to manage the elk population. So, indeed I can compare elk or deer tags to a trophy bass permit. It would be tool to meet the needs of a segment of the fishing population.


Also if you want to really go into the root of the problem from what alot of guys say then just ban people from taking home bass. You said it yourself many times that what is hurting the lakes is people putting them on the wall and or eating them. why charge someone who is catch and releasing all the time ? most of the bass guys put the fish back so why should we get charged.

d a replies: Are you listening to what I've said? You won't get charged if you don't want a delayed release or trophy bass permit for regulated fish.


As far as a permit for bass(like trout) where would the money go? for what? we dont have a bass hatchery here in AZ and if I remember correctly we dont stock bass in our lakes( except in certain situations ie patagonia) so why have a permit. Bass are plentiful in our lakes and breed in our lakes where trout dont. Bass are generally not a take home fish where trout are .
So there is a big difference.

d a replies: How about earmarking the money collected from these permits for enforcement of the fishing regulations on warm water fisheries? There's not enough game wardens on the water.


Desert cajun, thats wild that a tourny can get a permit.

Tournament permits are more widespread than you know. Even Texas I hear has done it on their trophy lakes.



Giving and idea to the game and fish like this would definatly show dollar signs in there eyes, not so much the game and fish guys but the number crunchers they use.
next you guys will want bass boats to be charged a automatic BASS tag fee since you buy a bass boat you are definatly targeting bass.

G&F already gets money when you buy a bass boat from the federal tax on fishing and boating equipment so they beat you to it.

It would be nice to see someone for a change to come up with an idea that doesnt cost the fishermen or tourny guys money every damn time they turn around.

So you're giving away your molds and worms free now?


Which would be simple to do.. like just make sag a a damn trophy lake and leave the rest alone.

At least you were half right!


Delw
d a
 

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If I remember correctly G&F said Rosey was the best. Sag & Canyon are bad these are small lakes and almost unfishable on weekends in summer. Why did Lake Pleasant have so many trophy Bass a few years ago? Because of the new lake. What happened to all the big fish? ( Not all are gone just most) . ON walls or the dinner table. Is the big fish boom also going to happen at Rosey when it fills? YES!! How do we protect those big fish? Size Limits I fish tourneys and have no problem with a size limit as I have had no problem with slot limit . There is no way to please everyone so it comes down to do you want a Trophy lake? If so then your going to have to live with some kind of restrictions If you tournament people don,t like it then they can fish another lake
50 years in AZ I.ve seen fishing go from great to bad then better again but still not as good as in the 60s.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
1. da the number of elk and deer are way way below that. I was just using the number for comparison. I should have used alot smaller number. you would be real suprised how low. in a few units you wont find more than 50 elk if that.
Also Game and fish doesnt charge more for trophy elk than cow elk. big game animals usually give birth to 1-3 young. Bass lay 1000's of eggs.

2. the point I was making is dont charge the tourny guys charge the bank fisherman and the non tourny guys. you will find that most of the tourny group doesnt keep bass but the others do so charge the group that does.



3. Your joking right? I mean seriously look at sag how many times have you seen a boatcop out there(no offence boatcop) you guys say it all the time they are there but not on the water.
Last thing I want to do is give the gov more money. Hell janet will steal it anyway you should see what her latest ripoff is.
The Gov(including game and fish and the sheriffs dept.) needs to spend money wisely and not just keep taking more and more.


4. but they are not here in AZ so lets keep it that way.

5. using that analigy(notice spelling :wink: ) why get paid for working?


6. Are you sure I am half right or am I half wrong?

Bottom line is make it simple(also cheaper that way) make sag a trophy lake with no exceptions. No special rules etc.
Just think for every permit you have to have an agency to handle it. more money will go to an agency(permit printing costs. personel design blah blah blah) then to the actual place where the money was intendned for.


Delw
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
So in a tournament, you catch a 10+ in a trophy lake that is supposed to be released, but since you have a permit you can keep it until the weigh-in. If (like delw asked) the fish dies, what would be the penalty?
Around how many years does it take a bass in Sag. or Canyon (with the trout stockings) to get up to 10+?
 

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Let me ask this question... What is considered a trophy bass to you?

When I started fishing a 3 or 4 lbr was huge. Those in most other states, except CA, TX & FL, would love a 6-8 lb fish and consider those trophies. I dont think the idea of "turning" Saguaro or Canyon into a "trophy lake" is a very good idea, at least for the majority of anglers. By the way, I think they already are trophy lakes.

One of the posters made a very educated statement in that those two lakes are packed with gorillas!!! If you cant catch whats in there now, you will more than likely not benefit from changing the rules for everybody else.

The permit idea for tournaments is bs... I think the rules should be the same for everyone. Thats not good PR for the nonTourny anglers, sounds hypocritical.

Now, to help in offering a solution, but just an idea, why not take this "want" to a lake like Apache, a difficult drive, outta the way, etc and turn a similar lake into your trophy lake? Like Seneca or something similar? Not Apache, just an example :D . Another idea is to just dump a few more trout into the lakes. Personally, if I catch a 14 or bigger its going on my wall!!!
 
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