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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
The whole Idea of a trophy lake is to protect the big bass hence the 20+" limit.
A few states have them.

There are maybe 3-4 tournys a year on sag.(mostly clubs) canyon gets alot of tournys maybe 1-2 a month from most clubs. this is why if it was to happen then sag should be a likely choice.

Sag, also is close to town where everyone lives and fish's everyday, people that fish sag. dont want it to end up like Pleasant. (which it wont just due to fishing pressure pleasant also flucuates 100+ feet per year which is a big impact of the size of the fish).

What some people are worried about is all the big bass in sag. will end up on someones wall, like supposibly pleasant did. personally I dont think this will happen due to the fact they are 2 entirely different lakes with different structure and water flucuations, not to mention these are not fed by the cap canal.

Its funny how times change not more than a few years ago Bass were considered trash fish, meaning they reproduce at a fast rate and eat all the other fish are a nuscience etc.,in parts of oregon and washington they are posioning lakes to kill the bass so other fish will come back. but up in these states trout ,steelhead and salmon are the main fish and they natrually reproduce up there and not down here. Trout salmon and steelhead are more desiriable to eat and most people dont like to eat bass even down here most people will eat a yellow or white bass before a largemouth or small mouth.

If people fight to get a trophy lake in AZ , I would hope it would be sag. and not any others.

As far as a slot limit those suck and in alot of case's really dont help ( like on rosy and Alamo) it might help if they kept the slot limit growing for a while as the fish grow but thats another story.

Pleasant doesn't get as many Bass taken out of it as many people think, I dont think much of the lakes do with the exception of bartlett, its more known of a meat lake anyhow.
Alot of the guys that fish for bass are guys that release them anyhow.

As far as the big bass genes that were mentioned I personally am not convinced that is true or plays a big part in the growing of big fish. I know it is used in alot of debates and sounds good but from what I have read I not convinced yet.
I know food avail(different types) and thenutrients in the water play a major part of bass growing big Just like trout and salmon


Delw
 

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2. the point I was making is dont charge the tourny guys charge the bank fisherman and the non tourny guys. you will find that most of the tourny group doesnt keep bass but the others do so charge the group that does.
Del, I don't fish tournaments, I don't keep fish, I don't use live bait. Fish get released immediately(sometimes before they even get in the boat), I believe I am less likely to kill a fish than someone that drags it around all day. When I did fish tournaments, I knew folks that kept fish from prefish days and tourney days, that they didn't weigh, to take home for fish fries. Shoot, I saw guys having bass for dinner in the evenings on a multiple day tournament. Don't charge me.
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Brown dog I dont want anyone to be charged. I messed up that sentence structure lol

it was in reply to conquistador's post wanting to charge tourny guys.

I was reffering to that if someone is going to be charged why the tourny guys (since most of them dont keep the fish) where as regular fisherman tend to keep more fish.



Delw
 

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Instead of thinking about "Trophy Lakes" we should be expressing our concearns about our ramps and docks. Make them safe and usable. Saguaro's ramp#2 is the pits. Last time I was there two boards were missing and looked like Osha should come out and issue a violation! Make our lake s usable and safe for all then worry about "Trophy Lake" creations.
When I started fishing I thought that a 3lb bass was huge. For almost nine years my biggest bass was 5lbs. Then I caught a 8 then a 11. Both of those fish are on my wall and I'll probably put a couple more up when I catch them. I know that there are people out there that dont agree with the wall thing but when I cant go fishing or company comes over I relive the experience like it just happened. Both of my big fish have come when I have had troubles in my life so they are also life releivers.
I would be willing to pay a stamp for bass as we do for trout so that the funds could go to extra trout/game fish stockings. I just saw a program on how catfish get into our lakes and I can see that that process is very costly.
As a small club representitive I would not like to see the permit fees increase. We already pay for "special use permits".
 

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Delw,

What I really want is the privilege to delay release for FREE. But I know that will never happen. Although it is a good starting position for when people push for a new slot lake or trophy lake.

If there would be a delayed release permit and fee then I would suggest that G&F fund a release boat at Pleasant. It would be rigged with a deep-water release system for all the floaters that get caught in the winter months. I’m thinking of about a $25 fee.

Pay as you go is not a liberal concept. It is a conservative concept. You know free enterprise as opposed to socialist idea of taxing everybody and using the money for special interest. A tournament release boat is a special interest need and should be funded by tournament anglers. (free enterprise) I pay a tax for a football stadium that I will never use. (socialism)

Fish die even when released immediately if they are hurt badly enough. I would accept a no-dead-fish in the livewell rule for slot fish with a fine for slot fish. It is a way to regulate the tournament guys who abuse their fish don’t take care of their equipment.

I don’t have deep pockets but I can afford to fish tournaments therefore I can afford a lousy $25 to a permit. Especially if it go directly to improving my pastime.
 
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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Since pleasant doesnt have a limit there would be no reason to to have a delayed release permit.

so lets talk about the reason you want a slot on pleasant?


also lets figure out about the release boat
(Remember its goverment we are talking about)

one pontoon boat with equipement lets say easy $30,000
2 employees to work weekend during the tournys, they dont have enough employees now so they would have to hire full time employees then you would need 4 (2 extra to cover for vacations and emergency's, time off etc)
lets say 35,000 per year per employee $140,000 total
then you would need a place to store boat 1000-2000 per year
supplies and maintence (gas oil oxygen etc)per year 3000-5000
Paper work and office work/space 3000-10,000 per year

just per year on the low scale your looking at
is $147,000 per year
divided by 52 weeks a year is $2826 per weekend
Thats about how much your permit would cost per tourny iuf you divide that by 50 teams you would have to throw in an $56.52 per team per tourny.


If you remember this conversation came up about putting a full time manned scale at rosy and a few other lakes a few years ago. its just not cost effective.
Also dont forget most clubs/circuits run 1 per month so the above number needs to be divided by 12 not 52 then you also have alot of torunys thatdont fish in the summer so maybe a good number would be 9

Better sell your boat to get that deleays release Priviledge permit

Great Idea :wink:


Delw
 

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I would be willing to buy a big bass stamp but do not want to see a trophy lake. Maybe simpler rules like no live bait, especially in tourny's would be a start. I always thought a 10+# bass was a fish of a lifetime. My best is 7#s. Does the bar need to be raised? 14#s! I would love to put a Trophy on my wall and I don't think wether or not I had a stamp would stop me. (catching 1 might)
I agree with 2 dogs. Put time on the water, work real hard, study your suroundings. If your targeting a fish of a lifetime your catch rate goes down cause big bad boys don't hang out with wimps.
Doesn't a new record, State or World, have to be destroyed?There goes that day-dream. ... Pete
 

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Wow! You must have spent a lot of time on those calculations! You're the one who says there's 3 or 4 tourneys per weekend at Pleasant. Wouldn't all tourneys share the cost and not just one club? And why hire 4 employess for weekend duty? And why not just convert an existing G&F pontoon? I could go on and on and on, but there's bigger issues than a release boat and what it might cost.
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
IF I was to pick a lake to turn into a trophy lake it would be and god strike me dead it would be Apache ( I hate the road) But the lake is the deepest and cleanest one we have it will also hold trout yearround and does not fall all that much unless dam repair is needed. As for trophy fees you will either have to have them or not you cannot regulate 1 lake for just 1 group of fishers boat bound verses shore bound IT WONT HAPPEN. The main reason lakes like CLEAR, CASISTAS, Castiac and the many S.D lakes have trophy size fish ( I am talking the over 10lb crowd not the piddly 5s,and 8s) is they have a closed season and they stock trout YEARROUND period. You want a trophy lake then WE will have to ante up the money in some form or other to help pay for the extra trout. Someone with the power ask Gand F how much they pay for 1 stocking of trout say just for Canyon then go from that figure. You would want to stock trout around 6 to 8 inches they will be bite size for at least 4 years for all SIZE of bass smallies also pack away the smaller trout at Canyon. You would like to latch into a 8lb smallie right? If anything charge a extra $5.00 dollars per person to fish Apache for ANY person who wets a line you ante up the extra 5.oo if you water ski you pay that money go's into 1 fund only!!!! and that is for that lake and that fund is audited monthly.
1. AllStar has 140 teams at least once a year thats 1400.0
2. Best Bet has at least 55 teams $275.00
3. ABA I have no clue
4. Chandler rod?
5.Apache bass?
6.Lawmans? I did not look to see if Mark has a tourney on it!!
7.Canyon Bass?
8. Monterey?
9.American bass?
10. AZ anglers?

How many other people use the lake? pre fisher's and the like how much money do you think would roll into that account just in 1 year from tourney guys and gals?
If you want a trophy lake you will pay in 1 form or another in some way.
You want to catch big fish rethink your fishing style and times you hit the lake to increase your size. And no I am not saying I am a bass god so dont even go in that direction all I am saying is ask yourself why you ARE CATCHING the 1's and 2's and 3's and then remember bass run in school size until they start hitting 6 and over. Approach nice and quite and make the first cast to your target ( the lone rockpile ) the ISOLATED brush pile and make it a good one. And yes I did not say the empty bank or calm cove. We
have a bunch of biggggg bass in SAG. and CAnyon WE just have to rethink on how WE catch them. I would rather have 50 pictures to dust off than 3 big fish. More later, time to hit the lake its getting dark and there is a little wind coming in off the main lake
and S.R.P will be pulling water PRIME TIME!!!!!!!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I am reading this stuff and cracking up. The question was simple

Would you liek to see sag. made into a trophy lake?
the rules are simple as well 20" fish must be released immed.

up to this last post we have seen people offering to give money which is generous however if game and fish just upped the price most of you would be screaming murder....


By know means Am I belittling people or making fun of them. I just think its funny how the topic went(strayed off the org topic).

A trophy lake is basically free they just put a slot in the regulations anything over xx" is to be released just like a slot at rosy or alamo.




Delw
 
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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Dewl dont think you are slamming or damming anybody, then to get to your ? sure make Sag. a trophy lake . Charge me a extra bit for it go for it I wont care. you wont see me screaming. I see your point you are just trying to get everybody to go to Sag. so you can have Pleasant to yourself. Dont think you are scamming me lol. But in all fairness what do you define a trophy lake? IS it catching a 5 fish limit that weighs 30lbs? or is it just a fisherie that puts out a 4lbers all the time, or is it everytime you go out you can expect to catch a fish over 8lbs? I am only asking cause to some people qaulity is better than 1 big fish every other week.

In my thinking if WE or G n F can solve the fly catcher at Rosy and let Rosy fill up again at least up to 65% then WE will have not 1 but 4 trophy lakes like the saying go's crap rolls downhill till the powers that are LET Rosy fill up to CONSERVATION POOL ( then it will be another FED law they cant let it go below 64% ) we will have GREAT fishing. I have said it before even at the meetings MOVE the slot limit on ROSY not remove it but bump it up we have a prolific of slots now is the time to amp it up to 17" to 21" hold it there for 3 years protecting them slots then drop it back down to 15" to 18" for 3 more years then see how it is going.
G n F will get alot more people to keep a 14" bass for table fair than a 12 1/2 bass right? Maybe I am wrong it wont be the first time nor the last. I wont even waste my time cleaning a 12 incher but at the same time I would not want to clean a 18" cause it is starting to show if it has the genetics to grow more. Then again I could be wrong. oh well.
 

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To say that you need to stock trout to produce big fish is a nonsence. do you think that the big fish in Rosey and San Carlos get trout I think not allthough Rosey has gotten a few trout in it over the years comming down from the Black and White rivers. San Carlos has more 10 plus lb fish in it than canyon or Sag together even with the low water. neturents is the name of the game Rosey is at the top of the chain and gets the most. Apache Lake would be the next best. If G&F would quit stocking trout in worthless places like the salt river , tempe lake Caynon and Sag just think of the money theyed save Think about what it cost to stock these lakes Its bad enough that they keep building lakes all over town where are they getting the water from? ROSEY!!!!
The best way to make a trophy lake is with a size limit then once you get it there then maybe allow you to keep one over that size. G&F should do suverys to keep an eye on the population if it should decrease then change it back so you can't keep any till they recover LET G&F KNOW YOU WANT A TROPHY LAKE THEN LET THEM DECIED WHICH IS BEST THERE THE ONES IN THE KNOW
 
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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Trophy Lake Proposal

The sad reality guy's is that it would never work, especially on a lake like Saguaro with 24 hour access. To begin with, in order to regulate which fish are harvested, you would need someone to personally check each boat. And this can only be done by having the lake open for certain hours and days per week like they have done on several lakes in California, where you spend two hours at the ramp hoping you will be able to fish. And the right to fish at night, gone. We have all seen the fisherman that feels because they purchased a license that gives them the right to keep every fish they catch. How can you eliminate this problem completely with all the boats and bank fisherman? You cant. All of us have seen people cleaning over the slot bass on Roosevelt, and they could care less because there is no one to ticket them. Let's be honest, the Game & Fish Department is very short handed as it is. In the last five years I have been checked for a license and life vests twice, both times was on a holiday. And we all have seen water skiers and jet skis on plane in the no wake zones on a weekly basis, there are not even enough officers to combat this problem. There is no question that a trout increase would help the fisheries on both Canyon and Saguaro, but both of these lakes have a good population of quality bass.
 
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Joe.

The 24 hour access part makes sence.

Over the slot limit bass are allowed to be kept at rosy. you cant keep slot bass between 13 and 16 inches.

And since they purchased a licence they do have every right to keep every fish they catch as long as its not over there daily limit and there possesion limit(in the freezer).

It sucks that only fishermen are checked and not jet skiers and other boaters. Ive been checked a crap load of times and got a ticket twice for bad fire extiniusher. Been checked on APache ,rosy, canyon alamo and pleasant. theres 100 boats next to me and I am fishing and they come right to me.
One reason is because you have to have a fishing licence to fish and game and fish has everyright to pull you over and check you for it, with that right they also are able to check for other things as well.
unfortunately they cant do that to skiers and others, if they could they would bust alot of people.

Delw
 
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Sorry about the mis print. What I meant to say was that you will see people cleaning slot bass that should be released. But I think there are some very valid points about the fantastic fisheries we do have. I have been very fortunate in that I have bass fished all over this country and in Mexico, and I have never been on a lake that consistenly produces more big bass than Canyon and Saguaro throughout the year. Think about this for a minute. We keep very detailed records of all our trips on Canyon and Saguaro, and what I just finished reading shocked me. Since the first week of February 1997, to the current day.We have caught and released 46 largemouth bass in excess of 10lbs. In addition to pictures of these fish, we took length and girth measurements of each fish before release. Of those 46 bass, nine exceeded 13lbs, one exceeded 14lbs, and three exceeded 15lbs. Only nine of these bass were caught during daylight hours. Two were bed fish, two were caught on a jig/pig, while the other five took trout swimbaits. Of the remaining 37 bass that were all caught at night, we had four seperate nights that produced two or more bass over 10lbs in the same night. Three days after the full moon phase of March in 2001, we had our best night ever with three over 10lbs, as well as two others over 9lbs. We both know that I'm on the water several times per week at prime activity periods which makes a big difference, but that information speaks volumes about Canyon and Saguaro. During the past couple of years, we have also received probably close to 100 down loaded pictures of bass between 8-13lbs from previous customers and fishing friends. Maybe, we are asking for two much?
 
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Hey Joe,

Nice to see you again, I am with you on Canyon I would take no other lake than it. I have kept my records up to date also and it is crazy on how many big fish come from it's waters. But I also begin
to think of Apache and if I spent 4 nights a week on it like I do Canyon what could I come up with ? I have a feeling we are in for a banner big fish year at Canyon at least this winter we are.

Take Care
gcbaitman
Gold Canyon Bait Co.
 

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While fishing on Saguaro yesterday these two men in a Starcraft aluminum boat come trolling by me in the river. They're serious trollers too. Downriggers, kicker motor. Maybe they are snowbirds from Minnesota or Wisconsin? I didn't see the boat numbers. Anyway, the guy in back sez to me howyadoinanyluck?

"Nope, I suck today. Just a couple. Howboutyou?" I ask.

He holds his hands about two feet apart. "Walleye?" I ask.

"Nope, Largemouth" he sez as he scrambles to the livewell. "About 6 lbs I think" he adds..

I say "If you're planning on showing it to me, don't, I don't want to see it. I'm strictly catch and release."

"Oh? OK." he says disappointedly.

If we had an upper size limit on Saguaro this conversation wouldn't have ended that way. He would have said we stuck a 6 and released her. Or he would have said "Yeah, we suck too, nothing yet."

To Joe Owens, I can't figure out if you're in favor of an upper limit on Saguaro. All you've said is it will never work because there's no enforcement. I think it will work. Not 100%, because a few will always cheat. But I believe most will respect the law and a few will get caught. So it will help. Your data on the tremendous number of big fish you and your clients have caught at Canyon and Saguaro certainly amplifies the point made about the pressure on the big fish at these two lakes. I want those big fish there 5, 10, 15 years and more down the road. With the ever increasing pressure on the trophy bass, and the fact that these two lakes are being managed like any other bass lake instead of a trophy lake, I'm worried it won't last that long.
 
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