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Whats funny is it resembles what the military gets for health care...it's called TriCare...the kicker is TriCare pays the docs about a 1/4 of what another insurance company would pay...

Im telling you people are scared of goverment health care because it will be cheap, and millions of people will get on it, bankrupt the private insurance firms, and ultimately bankrupt the goverment....unless it works like TriCare were the docs agree to take less.

People will use it just because it's cheap, and a good deal kinda like the cash for clunkers....



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Whats funny is it resembles what the military gets for health care...it's called TriCare...the kicker is TriCare pays the docs about a 1/4 of what another insurance company would pay...

Im telling you people are scared of goverment health care because it will be cheap, and millions of people will get on it, bankrupt the private insurance firms, and ultimately bankrupt the goverment....unless it works like TriCare were the docs agree to take less.

People will use it just because it's cheap, and a good deal kinda like the cash for clunkers....
Yeah dude but you get what you pay for..
 

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Yeah dude but you get what you pay for..
Look at the housing industry, your an expert and you know the prices were inflated. My son is soon to be a doctor we have discussed the inflated prices of health care. So we don't always get what we pay for, we usually overpay. Something we all have to consider.
 

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Look at the housing industry, your an expert and you know the prices were inflated. My son is soon to be a doctor we have discussed the inflated prices of health care. So we don't always get what we pay for, we usually overpay. Something we all have to consider.
True, but don't you think the inflated prices were brought on by the cost of malpractice insurance and all the illegals that skip on there bills ? I agree they charge a bit much . Every one getting sue happy over the years has caused inflation.

Whats going to happen with malpractice claims with this new health care reform ?
 

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Mexicans don't screw the insurance companies. They screw the hospital or an doctors office. LOL about raising insurance. Are you people brainwashed. Can you think for yourselves. There is no such thing as a frivolous lawsuit. More Bush propoganda. It is almost impossible to sue a doctor. You have to have over whelming evidence to win a law suit against a doctor.
You know what raises insurance though. 1 trillion dollars worth of pills people pop. Why do American's pay more for perscription medication than any other country?
 

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unless it works like TriCare were the docs agree to take less.
So how about you take less at your job too. Because there will be former docs applying for it. Not kidding. It takes docs as much as 16 (some more) years to pay off med school if they have a modest standard of living even part of that time. I do not mean living in a mansion and driving a Ferrari. Med school is like a very long expensive car loan. You hope when you are done paying for it that its still worth something.

How about if doctors move more and more to assembly line medicine? Do you want that kind of care. "A thru M drop your pants and cough." How about for your children? Oh, that's right. Scare them into line with the threat of multi million dollar lawsuits, or giving 50 to 75% of their gross revenue to insurance companies for their own insurance. That's sure going to encourage the best and brightest to go into or stay in medicine. Make sure you get the lawyers in line to prevent the doctors from being able to fight back. Wait. That's already been done. Its called congress.

I know. Lets put explosive collars on doctors, and blow their heads off if they don't work until they drop every day. I bet that will sure encourage quality healthcare in this country.

People will use it just because it's cheap, and a good deal kinda like the cash for clunkers....
And... I have yet to see how cash for clunkers creates a net gain for the national economy. I'm sure that I missed that day in economics in college when they explained how reducing the equity value of an object and using tax dollars to subsidize it produced massive net gains. It still looks more like subsidizing jobs in China to me.
 

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Mexicans don't screw the insurance companies. They screw the hospital or an doctors office. LOL about raising insurance. Are you people brainwashed. Can you think for yourselves. There is no such thing as a frivolous lawsuit. More Bush propoganda. It is almost impossible to sue a doctor. You have to have over whelming evidence to win a law suit against a doctor.
You know what raises insurance though. 1 trillion dollars worth of pills people pop. Why do American's pay more for perscription medication than any other country?
Are you aware that quite often malpractice companies settle for their clients when they are not even in the wrong because somebody else they represent might be. ie Hospital doc screws up after private practice docs admits patient. Patient dies (maybe) due to transporting unstable patient to remote better qualified facility. Attorney representing survivors files suit against all parties. Insurance company rolls over because its cheaper to pay off one time than to defend the 3 out of 4 entitities that did everything right. Sure one might have made a mistake, but the other three certainly didn't. They still have that on their record, and their insurance costs soar.

And... maybe the one party didn't screw up. They just took the option with the best chance of a good result in a bad situation, and the patient died anyway. The insurance company may still decide its cheaper to reach one settlement than to fight four court cases. It happens everyday.

Is that frivolous? Technically probably yes, but try explaining that to a family who just lost a loved one. They just want "payback." Kinda like the family that looses a loved one in a gun crime who then wants to pass more anti gun laws. It doesn't prevent crime, but it makes them feel like they are getting some payback."

Sure its hard to win a lawsuit in court. It should be, but that doesn't even begin to show the tip of the iceberg about the legal and insurance costs of medicine.

I do not "know" what it costs to take a medical malpractice case to court for the defending party, but I have been told for simple things like auto insurance claims it averages about $20K. No expert witnesses. No massive interrogations, and transporting of witnesses and specialists. Just a simple defense agaisnt paying for a bent bumper or not. I'ld bet there is an order of magnitude of difference. I would guess the minimum to go to court to defend against the simplest medical malpractice claim is well over $100K. The insurance company still has to pay it even if they win. Now take a look and see if they have a chance to counter sue for legal costs. LOL. (And even if they did to collect. ROFL.)

It is not a simple issue. Healthcare costs are admittedly partly driven by greed, but I think you are misunderstanding the greed driving it. I'm not saying many doctors are not greedy. I'm, just saying they are not (and have not been for a very long time) in the position to be the greedy people driving the costs. A senior hospital adminstrator makes a lot more than the docs working there. An insurance company executive makes a lot more than the doctors their company insures. The lawyers make a heck of a lot more off medicine than most individuals working in the proffession.

Here is another thing driving costs directly. A single doctor working in a busy practice may need 6-8 support staff to make it work. A nurse and medical assistant obviously. Somebody to answer the phones, greet people in the waiting room, and get them to fill out forms. Now you need somebody to handle billing, and maybe somebody else to pay bills and manage payroll. How about managing all those medical records and getting insurance approvals and writing refferrals to other doctors when appropriate. Get that many people in an office and you need an office manager. This does not even count actual book keeping and accounting. If its a small practice the doc may find it cheaper to send those services out to an accounting firm, but if they are fairly busy they need atleast a part time book keeper on staff, and they still need an accountant to put it all together at tax time.

Now your office visit needs to pay the salary of:

Nurse
MA
Receptionist
Biller
Payroll, AP, & Misc clerk
Medical Records & Refferal Clerk
Office Manager
Book Keeper (part time)
Doctor if there is anything left

Now you need to make sure you can cover when one of those people is sick, needs to get their kid at school, or just take a vacation day. Cross training will handle some of those things, but realistically you need another person to cover. How about if the doctor wants a day off? They have to make sure another qualified professional is available to cover atleast for emergencies. (and they still ahve to pay all those staffers)

Out of all those people, only the doctor and the nurse actually generate revenue. The others are just there to try and make sure they get paid, and don't go to jail for not keeping up with all the rest of the requirements already mandated by the state and the fed.

Now, figure this in. Their insurance takes take the lions share of the gross revenue. The insurance definitely costs more than the doctor nets themself.

Your 15-30 minute office visit has to pay for: 2.25 to 4.5 man hours of labor, plus overhead, plus insurance. Sure some of that time overlaps so lets just say 2 hours on overage for a 15 minute visit (probably somebody won't get paid at that rate, but). Does the receptionist who has to have sick people breathing on him or her all day deserve to only get minimum wage with no benefits. I wouldn't do that job for more than I make as a contractor. Why would I do it for minimum wage? That's probaly the lowest paid person in the building. Want to throw out a number. Say they get paid $10/hr and they are pretty good at their job. That ten an hour costs about 17/hr. Multiplply that by 9. Ok, lets be fair and assume everybody will work until they drop and never gets sick or needs a day off. Multiple by by 6. If the nurse (has degree), office manager (has degreee usually), MA (certified), Are all willing to work for the same wage as the trained on the job receptionist (that if they are any good is underpaid) then it costs a minimum of $102 to just meet payroll for your 15 minute office visit. That doesn't even count the overhead and insurance costs to keep the doors open. That's not realistic. Even three times that is not realistic. All of the licensed and certified and responsible parties get paid a lot more then $10/hr.

I honestly don't even know how they survive in the business much less make any money. And somehow through all of that the doc still has to make a house payment or rent a home, make a car payment so they can get to the hospital at 3am to see your kid, and pay off their student loans.

They have all the same bills you do including... healthcare.

Yeah, lets make the doctors take less money, and socialize medicine.
 

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Well said Bob. And if you think that the illegals don't drive healthcare, you should work in healthcare and see the millions that are written off because they don't have insurance or don't pay. That has to be made up somewhere. And yes they will drive up insurance costs when they get covered by this "healthcare" system Obama wants. You can rest assured that it will cost you and me and every other person out there working to make a living. And when so many feel they cannot afford private health insurance, those of us that choose to stay on it will see prices skyrocket to cover all of the expenses of an insurance company.
 

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So how about you take less at your job too. Because there will be former docs applying for it. Not kidding. It takes docs as much as 16 (some more) years to pay off med school if they have a modest standard of living even part of that time. I do not mean living in a mansion and driving a Ferrari. Med school is like a very long expensive car loan. You hope when you are done paying for it that its still worth something.

How about if doctors move more and more to assembly line medicine? Do you want that kind of care. "A thru M drop your pants and cough." How about for your children? Oh, that's right. Scare them into line with the threat of multi million dollar lawsuits, or giving 50 to 75% of their gross revenue to insurance companies for their own insurance. That's sure going to encourage the best and brightest to go into or stay in medicine. Make sure you get the lawyers in line to prevent the doctors from being able to fight back. Wait. That's already been done. Its called congress.

I know. Lets put explosive collars on doctors, and blow their heads off if they don't work until they drop every day. I bet that will sure encourage quality healthcare in this country.



And... I have yet to see how cash for clunkers creates a net gain for the national economy. I'm sure that I missed that day in economics in college when they explained how reducing the equity value of an object and using tax dollars to subsidize it produced massive net gains. It still looks more like subsidizing jobs in China to me.
Im not sayings its right, just explaining the the healthcare plan the military uses already does that...

And Health Care is broke in the US....hence why the same brand name drugs are 50% cheaper?



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What about the millions of Americans on welfare? This also raises costs. I'm not advocating non-paying patients are not the part of the problem, but there is no bigger scam than insurance and pharmaceutical companies being in bed together manipulating the cost of medication and health care. Those inflated costs are transferred to working families, working singles, and retired seniors, some who are eliminating health care because of costs. To many working Americans it is not just a matter of paying. My brother in law died of a brain tumor at 50, worked in the medical business and we had to literally support my sister in law to stave off bankruptcy because of insurance companies not wanting to pay their responsible share. This not a unique story it is the norm.
 

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Try no free electric scooters for old fat asses and no Viagra for broke dick old men. Try not giving free Medicare to people who have a million dollars in investments. Try one hospital in Nevada lost $24 BILLION last year on dialysis treatment for illegals. Try enforcing fraud laws on Medicare. Try interstate competition between carriers. Every old person and illegal does not deserve a free medical entitlement period. This system is bankrupt because old people are selfish and greedy and it will get a lot worse very soon with boomers like me. If you have a terminal illness you don't need a new hip.If you are 97 years old you don't need much of anything but a few good drugs. Kids from low income families deserve good medical for free. Old people need to accept that they can't all live to be 110 years old. We are a nation of greedy wimps.
 

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Good post, Bob!

Are you aware that quite often malpractice companies settle for their clients when they are not even in the wrong because somebody else they represent might be. ie Hospital doc screws up after private practice docs admits patient. Patient dies (maybe) due to transporting unstable patient to remote better qualified facility. Attorney representing survivors files suit against all parties. Insurance company rolls over because its cheaper to pay off one time than to defend the 3 out of 4 entitities that did everything right. Sure one might have made a mistake, but the other three certainly didn't. They still have that on their record, and their insurance costs soar.

And... maybe the one party didn't screw up. They just took the option with the best chance of a good result in a bad situation, and the patient died anyway. The insurance company may still decide its cheaper to reach one settlement than to fight four court cases. It happens everyday.

Is that frivolous? Technically probably yes, but try explaining that to a family who just lost a loved one. They just want "payback." Kinda like the family that looses a loved one in a gun crime who then wants to pass more anti gun laws. It doesn't prevent crime, but it makes them feel like they are getting some payback."

Sure its hard to win a lawsuit in court. It should be, but that doesn't even begin to show the tip of the iceberg about the legal and insurance costs of medicine.

I do not "know" what it costs to take a medical malpractice case to court for the defending party, but I have been told for simple things like auto insurance claims it averages about $20K. No expert witnesses. No massive interrogations, and transporting of witnesses and specialists. Just a simple defense agaisnt paying for a bent bumper or not. I'ld bet there is an order of magnitude of difference. I would guess the minimum to go to court to defend against the simplest medical malpractice claim is well over $100K. The insurance company still has to pay it even if they win. Now take a look and see if they have a chance to counter sue for legal costs. LOL. (And even if they did to collect. ROFL.)

It is not a simple issue. Healthcare costs are admittedly partly driven by greed, but I think you are misunderstanding the greed driving it. I'm not saying many doctors are not greedy. I'm, just saying they are not (and have not been for a very long time) in the position to be the greedy people driving the costs. A senior hospital adminstrator makes a lot more than the docs working there. An insurance company executive makes a lot more than the doctors their company insures. The lawyers make a heck of a lot more off medicine than most individuals working in the proffession.

Here is another thing driving costs directly. A single doctor working in a busy practice may need 6-8 support staff to make it work. A nurse and medical assistant obviously. Somebody to answer the phones, greet people in the waiting room, and get them to fill out forms. Now you need somebody to handle billing, and maybe somebody else to pay bills and manage payroll. How about managing all those medical records and getting insurance approvals and writing refferrals to other doctors when appropriate. Get that many people in an office and you need an office manager. This does not even count actual book keeping and accounting. If its a small practice the doc may find it cheaper to send those services out to an accounting firm, but if they are fairly busy they need atleast a part time book keeper on staff, and they still need an accountant to put it all together at tax time.

Now your office visit needs to pay the salary of:

Nurse
MA
Receptionist
Biller
Payroll, AP, & Misc clerk
Medical Records & Refferal Clerk
Office Manager
Book Keeper (part time)
Doctor if there is anything left

Now you need to make sure you can cover when one of those people is sick, needs to get their kid at school, or just take a vacation day. Cross training will handle some of those things, but realistically you need another person to cover. How about if the doctor wants a day off? They have to make sure another qualified professional is available to cover atleast for emergencies. (and they still ahve to pay all those staffers)

Out of all those people, only the doctor and the nurse actually generate revenue. The others are just there to try and make sure they get paid, and don't go to jail for not keeping up with all the rest of the requirements already mandated by the state and the fed.

Now, figure this in. Their insurance takes take the lions share of the gross revenue. The insurance definitely costs more than the doctor nets themself.

Your 15-30 minute office visit has to pay for: 2.25 to 4.5 man hours of labor, plus overhead, plus insurance. Sure some of that time overlaps so lets just say 2 hours on overage for a 15 minute visit (probably somebody won't get paid at that rate, but). Does the receptionist who has to have sick people breathing on him or her all day deserve to only get minimum wage with no benefits. I wouldn't do that job for more than I make as a contractor. Why would I do it for minimum wage? That's probaly the lowest paid person in the building. Want to throw out a number. Say they get paid $10/hr and they are pretty good at their job. That ten an hour costs about 17/hr. Multiplply that by 9. Ok, lets be fair and assume everybody will work until they drop and never gets sick or needs a day off. Multiple by by 6. If the nurse (has degree), office manager (has degreee usually), MA (certified), Are all willing to work for the same wage as the trained on the job receptionist (that if they are any good is underpaid) then it costs a minimum of $102 to just meet payroll for your 15 minute office visit. That doesn't even count the overhead and insurance costs to keep the doors open. That's not realistic. Even three times that is not realistic. All of the licensed and certified and responsible parties get paid a lot more then $10/hr.

I honestly don't even know how they survive in the business much less make any money. And somehow through all of that the doc still has to make a house payment or rent a home, make a car payment so they can get to the hospital at 3am to see your kid, and pay off their student loans.

They have all the same bills you do including... healthcare.

Yeah, lets make the doctors take less money, and socialize medicine.
 

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I think Franklin said it best when he said the U.S. health care system is broken. All doctors in the U.S. make plenty of money to pay their bills. Insurance companies make plenty of money also. Most hopitals make plenty of money. The biggest cause of bankruptcy is hospital bills and this is with people with insurance. Something is wrong. The biggest wrong ever, is insurance companies gambling on the stock market. A lot of these companies got burned. The insurance companies took your money that you paid for insurance and bought different types of assets in the different markets. I sure hope insurance companies are not buying U.S. T-Bills. I bet they are. Use to be the safest place to put your money. Your house was a safe place to put your money also, look how that turned out. Capatilism doesn't work because of greed and manipulation. And health care is a large percentage of the gdp. It is like 15 percent of the gdp. Sickening.
In order for health care to grow we are going to need more sick people. That way a health providers profits can soar and everyone that owns stock in that provider can get a nice dividend off a sick person. Doctors can push their drugs they like, so they can get a nice kick back from the drug makers. And also they might own a lot of stock in a company they push. Legalized drug dealing needs to get out of medicine. Most five year olds don't need to be on prozac. The percentage is way to high. We have become a drug society where a little pill takes all your problems away. And to many times these pills are passed out with beer at parties. But these pills cause other health problems from side effects. Repeat business for doctors. To many doctors want to treat symptons instead of giving a cure.
Next subject is people that choose to eat poorly. 1/3 of children are fat in America. Bad parenting especially with video games and tv. Can you see a rise in health care costs coming. These children are going to all need new hearts by the time they are 50. Fat people bother me more than the mexicans. 1/3 of America is going to raise my rates. Put down The Whoppers and eat apples, fat asses and step away from the playstation. The number one cause of health care costs is poor diet. Americans' diets get worse and worse and health care costs rise with it. With out diet and excercise no one will ever be healthy. If Americans took that to heart, we would have cheap health care.
As for doctors giving children prozac. This shows how stupid and lazy or society has gotten. And drugs cost the insurance companies a fortune. Children don't need prozac. They need to have the sugar, caffeine, and the play station taken away. And every once in a while they need a good ass whipping. Some kids need to be forced to excercise. To many parents are to lazy to make sure to discipline their children properly. Parents rather hand their children Mc Donald's and set them in front of a telivision and put them on prozac. That way the insurance company has to raise every one's rates so little Johny can get high.
 

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I think Franklin said it best when he said the U.S. health care system is broken. All doctors in the U.S. make plenty of money to pay their bills.
They do? You surveyed them? Asked every one individually? Right now many I know personally are surviving because medicine is not their sole source of income.
 

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They do? You surveyed them? Asked every one individually? Right now many I know personally are surviving because medicine is not their sole source of income.

Surviving how? They can barely afford their bmw payment while eating out every night. What type of car do they have? Where do they work? Not every doctor deserves a private practice. This isn't a guarentee upon graduating medical school. Not all doctors are cut out to be business men. Americans treat doctors as gods. No other country in the world does this? Why do other doctors in other countries choose to become doctors? Because they have the right attitude about serving people. Doctors in America, for the majority of them, are in the game for the money. Look how many doctors there are for plastic surgery. Health care is one of the few industries that is growing in our economy. There is plenty of opportunity in health care right now especially for doctors. Maybe the doctors you know need to pack up and move and get a better job in a better market.
 

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Nurse
MA
Receptionist
Biller
Payroll, AP, & Misc clerk
Medical Records & Refferal Clerk
Office Manager
Book Keeper (part time)
Doctor if there is anything left
Plus even if you are a small practice you have to have a server and a work station for most of these people and a program to fill out the HICFA forms for the insurance company so you can get paid. Add another 50K to you expenses. I spend a lot of my time doing work in medical offices from a single doctor to some pretty big practices and clinics. If your practice is half way active you need all those people and a few more. Running a medical practice is EXPENSIVE. You can't go down to the 1$ store to buy your supplies they have to be "approved" by the government, tested and retested to make sure they are safe for use on your patients. Every test cost the manufacturer money and guess what, he passes on to you directly. Every thing that you see in an exam room has to be made to certain standards that have to be inspected and approved. Generally a doctor does not see a real return on his investment in education and time until he reaches at least 50 or so. Some never see a real return like you'd expect. I know of a very good practice down on Van Buren where the doctor is in his mid 60's and he is still scraping by. He sees 20+ patients a day and still doesn't make much. His patients do not have insurance or money and pay him as they can. He's a good doctor, and could have a practice in Scottsdale but he feels the people down there need him more.

And Health Care is broke in the US....hence why the same brand name drugs are 50% cheaper?
Ok Franklin let me put this in terms you can easily relate to. You spend 25 years developing the perfect bass lure. You spend years doing the research, testing it, and finally get the perfect lure, guaranteed to catch the biggest bass in the lake every time! You get a patent on it, after all it is your intellectual genius that made it possible. You figure this should be worth $25 each. So you start making them after you spend the money to buy the molding equipment and material to mass produce these little gems by the thousands you stat shipping them out to dealers all over the US. Pretty soon you get the Attorneys General from 45 of the 50 states telling you sorry but the States constitution says you can't sell fishing tackle for more than 10% over your cost of manufacturing. So since you can make these things for $2.50 you can't charge more than $2.75 for them. You rightfully yell and scream that it's your invention, your sweat and effort that went into the design of it, your investment in production equipment and you should rightfully have a chance to reap your reward. They tell you sorry that's the constitution in our state. So you say fine then I won't sell in your state. The Attorneys General tell you fine but if you aren't going to sell your product in our state then we will not honor your patent. After consideration you decide that 10% is better than 0%, but you still have to pay for that expensive production equipment you bought, and you would like to get some money out of this before your patent expires and everybody is making your lure! So you go to the 5 states that will allow you to sell your product for what ever you can get for it and sell it there for $50 to $100 each depending on the people in the state you are selling it in.

If you substitute countries for states and a medicine for the lure this is exactly what happens in the pharmaceutical industry!
 
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